No … I haven’t been to Saddleback yet.
No … I haven’t solved world peace, but I’m working on it.
No … I haven’t danced with the devil in the pale moonlight
No … I haven’t seen my neph-monkey since Memorial day
No … I haven’t taken over the world, but it goes along with that whole world peace thing.
No … I haven’t gotten a date. (Despite Becca’s top 10 list)
No … I haven’t misplaced my brain, … err … maybe I have
No … I haven’t figured out the meaning of life, I’m still trying to figure out my own life.
No … I haven’t considered what type of chocolate I’m on at this phase in my life
(Warning: you are now entering serious thoughts, there is no shallow end)
Now that that is out of the way, I have finished classes for summer and with two papers outstanding I’m going to take this weekend off and have some fun and contemplate some of the things that I have been putting off this past quarter. Mostly having to do with some serious theological thinking regarding church. I’m not sure I have an answer, nor do I have all the front-end research done. I think I have a very basic building block understanding of what ‘church’ is supposed to be, and the tension lies within my understanding and experience of what Reformed church is and what I have experienced within a more Charismatic setting. I have to be honest in that I’m not fully understanding of what the underlying foundation of the Charismatic tradition is. I have been reading Christ Plays in Ten Thousand Places (for fun) by Eugene Peterson … slowly … and looking at the balance between what could be seen as the spiritual gifts and what is a perversion of the gifts in the sense of where Glory is given. I’ll let ya know how the book goes.
I can remember one day during my first quarter of a friend of mine coming out of class after having just finished a John Thompson paper and saying ‘I now understand why I am Reformed, I am Reformed.’ … and thinking, ‘that is odd.’ My problem is that I know I am Reformed, in more ways than I can count, which makes me odd, yet I still struggle with this tension in the Charismatic movement. Most of this falls in the music movements that are taking place. Now I’m at the point where I have a respect for the church music forms that I have encountered. I understand the beauty of the hymns and the drive that comes from a more contemporary side of things. Here is the fun part: Looking at the majority of the worship artists, who produce music in the contemporary style, are on some level within the Charismatic understanding. One of my fellow musicians at Fuller has a strong preference of hymns over contemporary music, and has stated as much. This musician has many skills that I wish I had as a musician and I respect her choice, and on the other side of things there are entire movements (such as Indelible Grace) that serve the primary function of trying to bring hymns within the realm of guitar and ‘band’ type of settings. At this point I want to have my cake and eat it too, but the 'I want' doesn't work to well with what God wants. And thus I reach the question: is there a way to mix some of the two, to … walk the line … while still being considered ‘Reformed' ... AND still feel like God is praised before the band is.
This is my tension and struggle as I carry on through Seminary. I see it as I visit churches with a 'budget' to support music in their churches and have very charismatic leaders to support their beliefs. I'm guilty of this, giving credit to Tomlin, Crowder, and so on rather than the God who wants our praise. I blur the lines all to much even in my own life where I take compliments rather than directing them Godwards (I must be in Seminary, I'm making up words).
It isn’t so much about what I want nor is it about pleasing a congregation but finding a place where God is worshiped by everyone. If I had to pick one or the other (which is not where I feel God leading me) I would end up Reformed, but then that is what I have grown up as. Yet as I learn more and more about different church styles I find a peace surrounding most things that might prove to be difficult theological issues. Or maybe it is coming to a place where ‘I don’t know’ is an acceptable answer.
I think I have another rant that I need to flesh out too, but I'll save that for another time.
Thoughts? Comments here or in person are open. I know I have holes in there somewhere, but take the rough meaning.
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My thoughts on worship are wrapped up here, from Isaiah 1:
11 "The multitude of your sacrifices — what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
12 When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts?
13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations — I cannot bear your evil assemblies.
14 Your New Moon festivals and our appointed feasts my soul hates. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood;
16 wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong,
17 learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow.
And also, from Jeremiah 7:
1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD : 2 "Stand at the gate of the LORD's house and there proclaim this message:
" 'Hear the word of the LORD, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the LORD. 3 This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place. 4 Do not trust in deceptive words and say, "This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD!" 5 If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6 if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your forefathers for ever and ever. 8 But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.
9 " 'Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, 10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, "We are safe"-safe to do all these detestable things? 11 Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the LORD."
Chew on this, and lets talk.
Correct me if I get these wrong:
Summary of Isaiah 1: I don't want your actions I want your heart.
Summary of Jer 7: Don't rely on the temple of God as God is planning on destroying it. Instead change your ways.
These are the presuppositions (in brief) that I am going from.
Ok if the call of God is to turn from going through the motions to becoming imitations of Christ in love in all situations then the question I have becomes: How do we lead our congregations in this. Setting an example can only go so far depending on church size, teaching is like listening to a boring lecture some times, and conversation may lead to realizations of area of change but doesn't produce the change itself.
'Making' a congregation doesn't do much, but I find in a majority of the Reformed churches I'm missing something as I watch people worship. I have asked the question in more than one situation of 'where is God in this service?' Yet I have no doubt about the salvation of the majority of the congregation. I also don't think that Christians today are using the church as a safety net. I find many individuals energetic about missions work. I still thing that there are some who are 'pew potatoes' but I think that is the minority. I don't think that a majority of the church needs to return to loving God and neighbor, I'm looking for how to be ecumenical I guess within the context of a Reformed church. Or if there is a reforming that is taking place within the Reformed tradition.
(Of Topic: I'm suddenly considering Calvin's invisible church, that is mixed in with the visible church.) I know that people worship in different styles, I have been to charismatic-lite churches, 'high-church' Reformed, 'Blended' Reformed, Contemporary Reformed.
To put this in perspective: I heard my Dad talking about how some of the congregation members wanted a traditional style of service (the church has moved into a sort of blended service) and his response was somewhere along the lines of a sarcastic 'I'll show them a traditional service...'
So I respond with my digested response: Can you mix your nice medium rare rib-eye (or however you like it) with your ramen noodles and a side of eggplant and Brussel sprouts at the same meal?
Having no semenary background and having only an exterior glance at the topics of conversation, I am going to make a basic assumption, then make some outsider points.
I take it a reformed church is where people play progressive rock music during the service, and charismatic is more hymm style.
I think somewhere along the lines, change has to happen. If you really want to think about it, think about how your religion was born. Basically Jesus came down to chill on the planet, the new testement was written and added the the Jewish Bible. Granted, Revelations offers some sort of mild punishment for adding to the end of the "Christian" Bible, but to put it in a very general term Christianity came from change. Dave thinks change is good.
By the way, "Pew Potato" made me laugh, and I think there are probably a lot more out there than you think. How many people go to church on sunday and complain about how they are missing the big game, or for that matter even miss just to watch the game.
Here is a thought, what would happen if a new movement was formed where they only san HipHop worship songs;
"Me and my main G drinkin iced t
Rollin in my hum-v in our white t's
Busta's rollin up tryin to hate on me
But when I roll with Jesus everythang be breezee!"
That would be some dope reformation...Word!
First of all, Kernie misses you too.
Second of all, I totally respect that you know which one you would pick if you had to choose but that you aren't willing to choose. I think part of the problem is that we're not willing to live with the tension. And I don't think sitting with the tension is magically going to bring answers down, but I think it will give us a better sense of understanding and an openness to try and make sense of how we can make sense of two different styles of worship. Good stuff to be thinking about.
@Dave (my bro, not Barry): Reformed is what Dad's church looks like. Charismatics are more ... hand raising, dancing, etc in the extreme cases, but there are mild version of Charismatic churches.
Regarding Jesus, I don't think he directly wanted to 'change' Jewish culture but rather remind them what they were supposed to be doing. I think that they had been so far removed from things like not having a home. (Isa, Jer, Ezk talk about how the Jewish people were going to be exiled. Ezra & Nehemiah are when they rebuild Jerusalem and the temple) Think about it. We are ~2000 years from Jesus' time and we only have the Bible to know what it was like. The reformers (Luther/Calvin) looked at the Catholic Church and saw that there was something that did not agree with them in terms of how Catholic worship was done and what the Bible spoke about worship.
I feel myself ... not necessarily in the same situation as the reformers, but I'm trying to piece together where things fit within the Reformed tradition of belief structures.
@Sophie: I don't think I would say I'm 'sitting' with the tension, rather going a no time limit wrestling match with it.
a no time limit wrestling match - that's great way to put it - and more power to you. I know it's not easy, but not many people will put in the time or effort to do it...
Response to summary of Isaiah 1: I'm not sure I see where God wants our hearts - he created them so they are already his. At the end, Isaiah is pretty specific about what God wants: "Stop doing wrong, learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow."
Response to summary of Jeremiah 7: I'm not really sure this has anything to do with the temple. I'm not sure that God wants anything to do with the temple. What does God want to do with our churches? We plea and plea for justification and retribution, yet what are we doing to seek these things for others?
"If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm..."
Here's my beef (pun intended): We call them worship SERVICES, but where are we serving? Who are we serving?
I am reminded of the words of Jesus as recorded in Matthew 25:
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Jesus really gives no mention about style of worship, but of substance. Can it be said we've been missing the point all along?
I think I'd hate to spend all my life (especially as a musician) trying to find the proper style of worship - traditional thats been handed down to us by generation after generation, or contemporary, finding new ways to communicate to new generations - only to discover that it was all meaningless and that what God desired of me (Micah, oh Micah) was right under my nose the whole time.
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